Can India Afford to 'Make' 114 Rafales in India? Experts Raise Concerns

Can India Afford to 'Make' 114 Rafales in India? Experts Raise Concerns


Defence experts in India have raised concerns about the financial and strategic implications of the potential acquisition of 114 Rafale fighter jets under the country's Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) tender. The projected cost, as well as the impact on other crucial Indian defence programs, has sparked debate.

Analysts estimate the total cost of 114 Rafales to be approximately $25 billion, which could severely strain India's defence budget. This massive expenditure, some argue, may necessitate cutbacks or delays for other essential domestic programs like the development of the Tejas MkII and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) fighter jets.

Moreover, experts doubt the practicality of the "Make in India" aspect of the deal. They contend that locally manufacturing Rafales would likely be 20-30% more expensive than building them in France. Setting up production in India would necessitate significant infrastructure, specialized equipment, and potentially inflated prices from Dassault Aviation.

The potential deal's reliance on Dassault relocating its entire production line to India is also viewed skeptically. Industry insiders argue that Dassault has likely recouped investments in its existing French facilities, making such a move commercially unappealing.

The analysis raises serious questions about the long-term viability of acquiring 114 Rafale jets under the MRFA tender. The Indian government will need to weigh the potential financial burden against the strategic advantages of such a purchase.

Alternative solutions, including the possibility of reducing the number of aircraft procured, may need to be considered to ensure fiscal responsibility and safeguard the future of India's domestic defence industry.
 
Look for Tejas mk2 after 2030, I am saying increase Tejas mk1a as what we have on war footing.
Both economically and technologically it's not possible to give that big order...

97 Tejas mk1A are costing us $6-7 Billion and we are in dire need to procure refueling tankers , AWACS..

Currently GE is facing Supply chain issues with F404 they have already said they can't reach the production rate 16-18 engines/year before 2026.

And in next 2-3 max Mk2 will be ready for flight Trials , because all the orders for parts of Tejas mk-2 have been given , Uttam AESA is almost ready and just few test are pending..
 
Either this person is a USA funded Chandigarh lobby or he does not know anything. From where did he arrive at 25 billion. He is talking about support structure. He forgot that support structure and infrastructure for 127 aircrafts was already part of first deal( 2 billion )which is already available. For the weapons package, all the TOT for weapons has been transferred to BDL and now they are also integrating with Tejas. So special weapons package is not required if we go with Rafale.The cost breakdown for only the aircraft was 670 cores per aircraft as per documents placed in parliament .So if we apply the same cost it will be 670 x 114 =76380 cores i.e less than 10 billion. If we go for other aircraft we will need to pay for support structure and weapons package also. So if at all we are going for MRFA, it should be only Rafael as it will be cheaper than others.
For which weapons has TOT been transferred to BDL?
 
We are not buying more planes from Russia… may be another squadron of Su30MKI and if we stretch, some MiG 29. Even that is fraught with lot of geopolitical risk.
I think even M29 will not be purchased.
 
Dessault has already said that if they get an order form India, they will start a manufacturing line in India. Rajan is merely speculating that Dessault will not subsidize the cost of the manufacturing line in India. They are already behind in delivering in their current orders and France has more strategic trust in India than any other country and would rather establish a line in India.
In the history of joint production in India, price of domestic produced equipment under license has always been more expensive. It's not going to change with Rafale.
 
Or we can negotiate with Russia for favourable terms on the production/purchase of more Sukhoi 30's. Buy, develop, steal tech for further upgrades to the plarform, the logistics of the Sukhoi is already well established.
200 million for Su-30 mki with old tech 🥲 , no thanks please......

Better buy Rafale with that money
 
While the cost aspect is certainly concerning, the following should be noted:
  1. As of today, the IAF has 30 active fighter squadrons. These comprise 13 Su-30MKI squadrons, 2 Tejas squadrons, 2 Rafale squadrons, 3 Mirage 2000 squadrons, 2 MiG-29 squadrons, 6 Jaguar squadrons, and 2 MiG-21 squadrons. Of these, the 2 MiG-21 squadrons will be retire / changeover in 2025, followed by the 6 Jaguar squadrons between 2028 and 2035, and the 5 Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 squadrons between 2036 and 2040.
  2. If we go by HAL's promises (which is an insanely optimistic thing to do, but I'll cover that in a bit), Tejas Mk 1A production is to be scaled up to 16 by 2025-26, and up to 24 by 2028-29. Even if those numbers are achieved, and we assume HAL will deliver 8 aircraft in 2024-25 (that is, by the end of March next year), the 180 Tejas Mk 1As (83+97) will only be delivered in 2033-34. Note that this figure assumes that the stated production numbers are achieved and capacity for other projects such as the Tejas Mk 2 and AMCA are completely independent. This won't be the case, so we shall take this into account.
  3. If Tejas Mk 2 production starts in 2031-32, and HAL can deliver 8 jets a year till 2033-34 and 16 in 2034-35 (both overly optimistic), by 2034-35, we would have 40 aircraft.
  4. Therefore, combining Points 2 and 3, we see that by 2034-35 (that is, the year when the last Jaguar squadron would be planned for retirement), we would have 180 Tejas Mk 1As and 40 Tejas Mk 2s. That makes for 10-11 active squadrons. Compared to today, we have retired 8 squadrons. Therefore, the IAF would now be at 32-33 squadrons, far short of the 42 squadron target.
  5. Let's further assume that the conclusion of Tejas Mk 1A production allows for one line (8 aircraft) to be switched over to the Tejas Mk 2, with the remaining two lines going to AMCA. This would allow for 24 Tejas Mk 2 aircraft to be built from 2036-37. Let's also assume AMCA production starts at 8 aircraft in 2034-35, and scales up to 16 from 2036-37.
  6. By 2040, when the last of the Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s have left service, we now have a further (as compared to 2034-35) 122 Tejas Mk 2 and 80 AMCA. That makes for 10 active squadrons. This puts the IAF at 37-38 squadrons by 2040, which is still short of the 42 squadron target.
  7. Assuming Tejas Mk 2 production caps at 200 aircraft, production would cease in 2042. By that point, we would have a further (as compared to 2040) 32-40 AMCA. That puts the IAF at 41-42 squadrons, which is barely scratching the target.
  8. By the early 2040s, the Su-30MKI would be nearing the end of its lifespan, and retirements would start around 2043 (to allow for 1 squadron to be retired each year, for a final retirement in 2055). Thus, the 42 squadron target would only sustainably be achieved in the late 2040s.
Based on the above points, it is clear that indigenous production (even at its most optimistic) may well not be enough. That is to say nothing about the calls to increase that target to 51-60 squadrons to account for the increased strength of the Air Forces of China and Bhikaristan.

Now, coming to practical considerations (as I referred to above):

A. HAL's claims are not sustainable for the simple reason that putting those capacities together would reach 32 aircraft a year by the start of the 2030s, and would further increase to 56 aircraft a year by 2036 (adding TEDBF production).

B. Engine bottleneck concerns, be it for F404 deliveries or for local manufacturing of the F414 or the 110 kN engine, have not been considered here. To manufacture 54 aircraft a year by the late 2030s or early 2040s, we would need 120+ engines (80 for the 40 twin-engined aircraft + 24 for the 24 single-engined aircraft + spares for the IAF). That is a very massive capacity requirement.

A more realistic estimate would be to assume a (still optimistic) 75% production efficiency for HAL. That would mean Tejas Mk 1A production would cease in 2036-37, Tejas Mk 2 production would cease in 2046-47, and AMCA would reach 168 aircraft by 2047, with TEDBF production standing at 108 by that point. That puts us at 42 squadrons in total by 2047, taking into consideration Su-30MKI retirement.

Now, coming to the cost aspects: The Rafale is a very expensive fighter, and we know for a fact that local production does tend to cost more. However, as evident by the numbers presented above, we really do not have any alternative to MRFA. This is a bullet we must bite, like it or not. If we take an aircraft other than the Rafale for MRFA (say, the F-21) for lower costs, we face the problem that we are facing with the Mirage 2000 today: Difficulty in sourcing spares.

Like it or not, this is a bullet we must bite for the costs, unless we are willing to take the aforementioned logistical headache 20 years down the line.
Jaguars should always be excluded from IAF count. Because it is a deep strike aircraft. In a war, you need to establish air superiority and going against PAF or PLAAF, Jaguars cannot be counted for that role. Their role will always require either escorts or dominance of both air and SEAD. For which other fighters will come into play. Therefore the count of non-Jaguars is key.
So for IAF count, exclude 6x Jag squadrons.
 
India's adversary like China & Pakistan do not follow long delaying procedures of tendering for acquisition of Fighters. Chinese PLF is already slated to induct 500 J-20 fighters and deploy 200 of these against India. Even if we don't consider J-20 to be true 5th gen fighter it is atleast 4.5 gen fighter and we need Rafael to tackle them since Tejas mk-2 will not reach induction stage before 2030. Additionally they will also deploy FC-31 near LAC and provide good no to Pakistanis. Hence only a short sighted person or someone sponsored by Chinese/ Pakistan Or rival Vendor Company will misguide asking to give up on Rafael. Rather with imminent shortage of fighter squadrons India should look to induct 200 of these fighters under make in India setting up a full scale hi tech assembly line locally. Later on HAL can utilize this assembly line to speed up production of Tejas mk-2, AMCA & TEDBF.
Rafale isn't an air dominance fighter.
J-20 will eat it for breakfast.
 
I kept saying all of this time that India isn’t going to buy any foreign fighter that costs $25 billion. This ‘competition’ is just used to keep foreign western countries happy at the chance of them getting a deal with us. As soon as Tejas 2 has its first few flights and it’s technologically more enhanced for the air force then India will drop the deal entirely. This is exactly what we did for the single engine fighter jet program as we fixed it into Tejas MK1A
 
Both economically and technologically it's not possible to give that big order...

97 Tejas mk1A are costing us $6-7 Billion and we are in dire need to procure refueling tankers , AWACS..

Currently GE is facing Supply chain issues with F404 they have already said they can't reach the production rate 16-18 engines/year before 2026.

And in next 2-3 max Mk2 will be ready for flight Trials , because all the orders for parts of Tejas mk-2 have been given , Uttam AESA is almost ready and just few test are pending..
Kaveri engine is in pipeline and it would be logical to use by 2025-2026. Further for 25 billion you will get about four hundred aircraft that is affordable. Yes, Tejas mk2 and AMCA but their production in 2030+India can always ramp up production once they develop engine.
 
Man why can't we just scrap this joke tender and buy additional rafales . Retrials are pointless.
 
They should get atleast 2 more squadorns of the latest Rafale .....pronto. China and pak are not going to wait for India to build up its numbers....This is urgent.
 
Fighter jets are like flying coffins in the age of AI powered drones, MRIVs, laser weapons systems.
 
Your conclusion is just stupid, 25 billion dollars could give all projects a boost wasting on Rafale is loss to development. I think we should have at least 800 Tejas mk1a, by 2025 India will be third largest economy nominal and it is already third by purchasing parity. India then must do proper production and be a superpower.
The simple fact of the matter is that you can't produce aircraft at a very high rate simply by wishing for it. Fighters are complex machines, and in the Tejas' case, while HAL manufactures the jets, they have hundreds of component suppliers. Not all of them can (or will) be able to scale up production suddenly to allow you to manufacture 50+ jets a year. That sort of thing takes decades.

Secondly, 800 Tejas Mk 1A? Are you out of your mind? The Tejas Mk 1A is a stopgap solution at best to make the Tejas Mk 1 more relevant for modern times. 800 Tejas Mk 1A would not only be near-impossible to produce given current infrastructure constraints, but would also destroy the entire force structure of the IAF and overload any available infrastructure several times over.

There is also the fact that while India is on track to become the third largest economy by GDP (nominal) by 2027-28 (not 2025, since we won't exactly have a 25% growth rate next year, will we?), that statistic matters little when it comes to scaling up production. Fighters are not metal screws, and you can't simply increase production rates on a whim.
 
Kaveri engine is in pipeline and it would be logical to use by 2025-2026. Further for 25 billion you will get about four hundred aircraft that is affordable. Yes, Tejas mk2 and AMCA but their production in 2030+India can always ramp up production once they develop engine.
The Kaveri won't be usable for jets by 2025-26. Not by a country mile. The engine is almost certified for dry runs, but an afterburner section is still being worked on. Without that, the Kaveri is only suitable for small drones.

You can probably afford 400 Tejas aircraft for 25 billion USD, but that would utterly destroy your force structure and overload your infrastructure very adversely. Oh, and 400 Tejas aircraft (including the 180 on order today) would take atleast 25 years to complete deliveries (assuming you put every other project's production on hold), by which point we would already have sent the IAF into a suicide spiral.
 
FYI - eventually there may be 2500+ F-35s (there are more than 1000 flying today) flying around globally with US and its allies...I think India should reduce MRFA and also buy F-35s A/B/C all versions for IAF and IN carriers (and LPDs), while cancelling TEDBF.
Sir, the US hasn't offered F-35s, and unless something very significant changes, F-35 acquisition by India is highly unlikely. For a start, our acquisition of S-400s would be a sticking point, and any potential F-35 acquisition may well require us to retire or sell off the S-400. Oh, and the F-35C is not suitable for STOBAR operations. Hence, we would either have to go ahead with the Rafale M, or compromise and use the F-35Bs instead.
 
Just purchase the technology of SU-57 & make 200-300 in India. Baat khatam. Koi jhig jhig hi nahi. AMCA,ORCA,TEDBF,MK I,MK II jab banega tab banega.... Yeh Western Countries kaa bahut natak jhelna padtay. Spares nahi, political angle, USA ko khush rakho. England ko Yes Sir, Yes Sir bolte raho. Upar se UN bolte rehta hai Kashmir Human rights, human rights.
Seedha SU-57, SU-75, MiG-41 assembly line establish karo India mein game khallas! 😎.
Barabar hai????? 15-4-2024 🙏🙏
You do realise that even Russia is unable to produce the Su-57 in significant numbers, right? It is an overly complex overhyped aircraft that claims to be a 5th generation fighter but isn't.
 
Reason was it was costly and we didn’t want to commit that kind of money. Yes IAF wanted Dassault to take ownership of quality and Dassault was not ready.

HAL had been producing one aircraft per year per hangar for decades together. Expecting beyond that from HAL is stupidly. Put money in infra and more plane will come out - it’s as simple as that.
Tell me this: When Dassault was being limited to what was essentially an advisory role, why exactly should they have taken responsibility for any delays HAL would inevitably bring around?

Yes, Dassault should have been more compromising on the quality aspects, but they did agree to a certification system where they would certify the aircraft. What they did not agree to (very understandably) was to take monetary responsibility for any quality issues and delays.
 
Kaveri engine is in pipeline and it would be logical to use by 2025-2026. Further for 25 billion you will get about four hundred aircraft that is affordable. Yes, Tejas mk2 and AMCA but their production in 2030+India can always ramp up production once they develop engine.
Kaveri engine is currently going through prototype development phase the order of various crucial parts has been given to Indian companies for the afterburner section

Then it will be go through ground trails then it will be go to Russia for flight Trials , then if it gets min 83-84Kn thrust then only u will be tested on tejas , add 2-3 years of rigorous testing... Then you will get certification, alone certification takes 2-3 years

Actually timeline for Kaveri to be inducted is mid-time refit of tejas mk1 jets by 2034 beyond
 
No country has purchased F-35? What nonsense! Except the US, the F-35 is operated by or on order by 17 other nations, with a further 2 nations' deals in the pipeline.

The F-35 has its flaws, just like any other aircraft, but it is by no means a failure. Not by a country mile.
He is a big time blabberer and his posts seldom makes any sense. And he dosent gets tired by posting nonsensical messages.
 
FYI - eventually there may be 2500+ F-35s (there are more than 1000 flying today) flying around globally with US and its allies...I think India should reduce MRFA and also buy F-35s A/B/C all versions for IAF and IN carriers (and LPDs), while cancelling TEDBF.
US will not be keen to offer F35 without India discarding S 400 .
 

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