Can India Afford to 'Make' 114 Rafales in India? Experts Raise Concerns

Can India Afford to 'Make' 114 Rafales in India? Experts Raise Concerns


Defence experts in India have raised concerns about the financial and strategic implications of the potential acquisition of 114 Rafale fighter jets under the country's Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) tender. The projected cost, as well as the impact on other crucial Indian defence programs, has sparked debate.

Analysts estimate the total cost of 114 Rafales to be approximately $25 billion, which could severely strain India's defence budget. This massive expenditure, some argue, may necessitate cutbacks or delays for other essential domestic programs like the development of the Tejas MkII and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) fighter jets.

Moreover, experts doubt the practicality of the "Make in India" aspect of the deal. They contend that locally manufacturing Rafales would likely be 20-30% more expensive than building them in France. Setting up production in India would necessitate significant infrastructure, specialized equipment, and potentially inflated prices from Dassault Aviation.

The potential deal's reliance on Dassault relocating its entire production line to India is also viewed skeptically. Industry insiders argue that Dassault has likely recouped investments in its existing French facilities, making such a move commercially unappealing.

The analysis raises serious questions about the long-term viability of acquiring 114 Rafale jets under the MRFA tender. The Indian government will need to weigh the potential financial burden against the strategic advantages of such a purchase.

Alternative solutions, including the possibility of reducing the number of aircraft procured, may need to be considered to ensure fiscal responsibility and safeguard the future of India's domestic defence industry.
 
Rafale fighter jets will soon be made in Nagpur, said Union minister Nitin Gadkari on Saturday (28th January 2024). “French company Dassault will be manufacturing Rafale fighter jets here that you have witnessed taking off during the Republic Day parade in Delhi,” said Gadkari, while addressing the inaugural of Advantage Vidarbha, an industry event to draw investments. Gadkari said, at least 1,200 spares of both Airbus and Boeing are also being manufactured at M/s TAAL unit in Mihan-SEZ.

The unit of Dassault Reliance Aviation Limited (DRAL) is in Mihan-SEZ and is a joint venture between France’s Dassault and Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Reliance Group.

During a technical session of the event in which Lt General (retd) Vinod Khandare, principal advisor to ministry of defence was also present, the CEO of DRAL Prakash Lute spoke about plans of making Rafale.

 
My suggestion is buying 3 squadron of F15Ex directly from Boeing and in the deal asking them to start a plant Boeing X-32 stealth fighter in India.
AMCA is still 20 years away. We can't buy F35. So runner-up X-32 is the most viable option, provided USA agreed to share stealth Technology.
 
My suggestion is buying 3 squadron of F15Ex directly from Boeing and in the deal asking them to start a plant Boeing X-32 stealth fighter in India.
AMCA is still 20 years away. We can't buy F35. So runner-up X-32 is the most viable option, provided USA agreed to share stealth Technology.
Yai Nasha meko bhi chahiye
 
Things are slowly turning to TEDBF derived Air Force variant.
But for that we need to add new production line (Pubic Private Partnership ofc)
 
Things are slowly turning to TEDBF derived Air Force variant.
But for that we need to add new production line (Pubic Private Partnership ofc)
ORCA will not be possible due to practical production constraints. Please refer to my comment for the numbers. It's a long post, so don't want to copy that here.
 
While the cost aspect is certainly concerning, the following should be noted:
  1. As of today, the IAF has 30 active fighter squadrons. These comprise 13 Su-30MKI squadrons, 2 Tejas squadrons, 2 Rafale squadrons, 3 Mirage 2000 squadrons, 2 MiG-29 squadrons, 6 Jaguar squadrons, and 2 MiG-21 squadrons. Of these, the 2 MiG-21 squadrons will be retire / changeover in 2025, followed by the 6 Jaguar squadrons between 2028 and 2035, and the 5 Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 squadrons between 2036 and 2040.
  2. If we go by HAL's promises (which is an insanely optimistic thing to do, but I'll cover that in a bit), Tejas Mk 1A production is to be scaled up to 16 by 2025-26, and up to 24 by 2028-29. Even if those numbers are achieved, and we assume HAL will deliver 8 aircraft in 2024-25 (that is, by the end of March next year), the 180 Tejas Mk 1As (83+97) will only be delivered in 2033-34. Note that this figure assumes that the stated production numbers are achieved and capacity for other projects such as the Tejas Mk 2 and AMCA are completely independent. This won't be the case, so we shall take this into account.
  3. If Tejas Mk 2 production starts in 2031-32, and HAL can deliver 8 jets a year till 2033-34 and 16 in 2034-35 (both overly optimistic), by 2034-35, we would have 40 aircraft.
  4. Therefore, combining Points 2 and 3, we see that by 2034-35 (that is, the year when the last Jaguar squadron would be planned for retirement), we would have 180 Tejas Mk 1As and 40 Tejas Mk 2s. That makes for 10-11 active squadrons. Compared to today, we have retired 8 squadrons. Therefore, the IAF would now be at 32-33 squadrons, far short of the 42 squadron target.
  5. Let's further assume that the conclusion of Tejas Mk 1A production allows for one line (8 aircraft) to be switched over to the Tejas Mk 2, with the remaining two lines going to AMCA. This would allow for 24 Tejas Mk 2 aircraft to be built from 2036-37. Let's also assume AMCA production starts at 8 aircraft in 2034-35, and scales up to 16 from 2036-37.
  6. By 2040, when the last of the Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s have left service, we now have a further (as compared to 2034-35) 122 Tejas Mk 2 and 80 AMCA. That makes for 10 active squadrons. This puts the IAF at 37-38 squadrons by 2040, which is still short of the 42 squadron target.
  7. Assuming Tejas Mk 2 production caps at 200 aircraft, production would cease in 2042. By that point, we would have a further (as compared to 2040) 32-40 AMCA. That puts the IAF at 41-42 squadrons, which is barely scratching the target.
  8. By the early 2040s, the Su-30MKI would be nearing the end of its lifespan, and retirements would start around 2043 (to allow for 1 squadron to be retired each year, for a final retirement in 2055). Thus, the 42 squadron target would only sustainably be achieved in the late 2040s.
Based on the above points, it is clear that indigenous production (even at its most optimistic) may well not be enough. That is to say nothing about the calls to increase that target to 51-60 squadrons to account for the increased strength of the Air Forces of China and Bhikaristan.

Now, coming to practical considerations (as I referred to above):

A. HAL's claims are not sustainable for the simple reason that putting those capacities together would reach 32 aircraft a year by the start of the 2030s, and would further increase to 56 aircraft a year by 2036 (adding TEDBF production).

B. Engine bottleneck concerns, be it for F404 deliveries or for local manufacturing of the F414 or the 110 kN engine, have not been considered here. To manufacture 54 aircraft a year by the late 2030s or early 2040s, we would need 120+ engines (80 for the 40 twin-engined aircraft + 24 for the 24 single-engined aircraft + spares for the IAF). That is a very massive capacity requirement.

A more realistic estimate would be to assume a (still optimistic) 75% production efficiency for HAL. That would mean Tejas Mk 1A production would cease in 2036-37, Tejas Mk 2 production would cease in 2046-47, and AMCA would reach 168 aircraft by 2047, with TEDBF production standing at 108 by that point. That puts us at 42 squadrons in total by 2047, taking into consideration Su-30MKI retirement.

Now, coming to the cost aspects: The Rafale is a very expensive fighter, and we know for a fact that local production does tend to cost more. However, as evident by the numbers presented above, we really do not have any alternative to MRFA. This is a bullet we must bite, like it or not. If we take an aircraft other than the Rafale for MRFA (say, the F-21) for lower costs, we face the problem that we are facing with the Mirage 2000 today: Difficulty in sourcing spares.

Like it or not, this is a bullet we must bite for the costs, unless we are willing to take the aforementioned logistical headache 20 years down the line.
 
My suggestion is buying 3 squadron of F15Ex directly from Boeing and in the deal asking them to start a plant Boeing X-32 stealth fighter in India.
AMCA is still 20 years away. We can't buy F35. So runner-up X-32 is the most viable option, provided USA agreed to share stealth Technology.
Won't happen. The only potentiality here is that the F-15EX ends up winning MRFA as a whole, which is highly unlikely. The X-32 is a non-starter simply because the US won't share the technology, and because it would still be cost-prohibitive: A flying prototype needs a large amount of money and work to be sent in to make it a combat-capable aircraft.
 
better for india to shut down on the MRFA and invest the USD 25 billion to MK1A, MKII, AMCA and ORCA and TEDBF, and just USD 1 to USD 2 billion to Kaveri engine will help us to get the required Engine for all these desi Aircraft
 
My suggestion is buying 3 squadron of F15Ex directly from Boeing and in the deal asking them to start a plant Boeing X-32 stealth fighter in India.
AMCA is still 20 years away. We can't buy F35. So runner-up X-32 is the most viable option, provided USA agreed to share stealth Technology.
Absolute best not to waste money on expensive foreign 4th gen platform, better to cancel MRFA and add more hangers in HAL to make more 4th Gen MK2's, at the most another 36 Rafale's could be bought off the shelf, even that would cost $10Bln.
 
Things are slowly turning to TEDBF derived Air Force variant.
But for that we need to add new production line (Pubic Private Partnership ofc)
That is what is called stealth Minus AMCA MK1, even TEDBF is a doubt, my guess is, after making MK2 they will jump to AMCA.
 
Seems to be an attempt to derail the potential Rafale acquisition. Additional funds should be allocated to fund the deal as its crucial for national security.
 
its quite clear we cant have the cake and eat it , india cannot afford 25 bill$. even then it going to take more than 5 years for delivery as there has been a sudden increase in demand for the rafale which even the french did not envisage. Good for the french.
Its common sense that the rafale is going to to cost 2.5 times more at least to make it in india .. about 220 mill$ as we dont have the the infrastructure to make them to french exacting standards. Thats nearly the cost of an f-22.
The Su 30 mki costs nearly 80+ mill$ to make in india when we can get a new one from russia for 50% of the cost.
There are others ways like revamping the the su30mki to super status with latest electronics with the help of israel with cutting edge electronic warfare pods and net centric ability with the Bnet link. There latest israeli aesa jamming pods are state of the art. The su-27 lost badly to thai jas 39- during thai chinese exercise due to netcentric capability of the thai airforce gripen. Even if w e ncounter j-20 fighters ultimately we can jam the radar guided missiles or divert them with ew warfare taking away the element of so called stealthy j-20.
There is no other way but to build our own fighters like the LCA mk2 and amca. It will take time but help in the long run.
 
better for india to shut down on the MRFA and invest the USD 25 billion to MK1A, MKII, AMCA and ORCA and TEDBF, and just USD 1 to USD 2 billion to Kaveri engine will help us to get the required Engine for all these desi Aircraft
Where is mk2, AMCA, ORCA and Tedbf? We are ready to order but where are the planes? Even for Mk1a deliveries are not happening.

As for engine, Government had given blank check to GTRE but the idiots couldn’t even finish that money. They had no idea whatsoever what to do with that money.
 
its quite clear we cant have the cake and eat it , india cannot afford 25 bill$. even then it going to take more than 5 years for delivery as there has been a sudden increase in demand for the rafale which even the french did not envisage. Good for the french.
Its common sense that the rafale is going to to cost 2.5 times more at least to make it in india .. about 220 mill$ as we dont have the the infrastructure to make them to french exacting standards. Thats nearly the cost of an f-22.
The Su 30 mki costs nearly 80+ mill$ to make in india when we can get a new one from russia for 50% of the cost.
There are others ways like revamping the the su30mki to super status with latest electronics with the help of israel with cutting edge electronic warfare pods and net centric ability with the Bnet link. There latest israeli aesa jamming pods are state of the art. The su-27 lost badly to thai jas 39- during thai chinese exercise due to netcentric capability of the thai airforce gripen. Even if w e ncounter j-20 fighters ultimately we can jam the radar guided missiles or divert them with ew warfare taking away the element of so called stealthy j-20.
There is no other way but to build our own fighters like the LCA mk2 and amca. It will take time but help in the long run.
I don’t know why people come up with their own numbers.

Rafal, for France, costed $ 68 million in 2014 and was given to us for ~90 million usd in 2016. Since then the price has been relatively stable, at least going by the international sales figures.

As for Su30, the difference was about 50%. So goi g from 68 million, we can get the jets for around 100 million USD per jet.

As for the surge, Dassault has already gone from 1 jet per month to 2 jets this year. The projection is 3 jet per month by the end of this year. And their CEO says that they can easily climb to 4, if new orders come up. They still are maintaining the promise to deliver first jets within 3 years of signing the deal.

As for mk2 and all, the planes are simply non existent and won’t come before at least 2040. So MRFA is an existential requirement for us.
 
We should buy only 114 rafales .because we already 36 and 26 for navy is already selected. F35 is a complete failure
No country has purchased f35. F15 ex is a 4th gem fighter with large rcs. And make in india more important than the security of the country. Except f22 no fighter can match rafales.
 
better for india to shut down on the MRFA and invest the USD 25 billion to MK1A, MKII, AMCA and ORCA and TEDBF, and just USD 1 to USD 2 billion to Kaveri engine will help us to get the required Engine for all these desi Aircraft
And to depend on one OEM for all these, that too on HAL & expecting every thing rolls out as per declared timelines??? Too risky.. need MRFA
 
Dessault has already said that if they get an order form India, they will start a manufacturing line in India. Rajan is merely speculating that Dessault will not subsidize the cost of the manufacturing line in India. They are already behind in delivering in their current orders and France has more strategic trust in India than any other country and would rather establish a line in India.
 
Biggest blunder done by the government when we settled for 36 Rafale fighters instead of the 126 TOT transfer and local manufacturing.
 
IAF may dream for 114 Rafales but they are not coming as GoI is focused on indigenous solutions. It is better IAF drops MRFA and goes for 36 additional Rafales that is feasible as a stopgap arrangement. If the process is delayed further by 3 more years, GoI will not approve any MRFA.
 

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